http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jul/31/disabled-cuts-paralympic-games-atos?newsfeed=true
Now, before I get sent straight to the naughty step or similar, let me explain why I have found my self in the weird position of defending ATOS.
Last night, as we watched the 2 damming programmes about the work capability assessment, there was one key thing that kept screaming at me. ATOS are not the bad guys, well yes, they are bad and evil and whatnot but as dispatches showed last night they are simply enacting policies set out by governement.
ATOS are not medical experts, but IT experts. The government picked them because of their IT system and their promise of effeciency, and getting people off benefits, which was the governments target. At first it was wrapped up in the cosy ideology of getting disabled people into work, but now it has become more overtly about saving money.
The private companies are profiteering from peoples suffering, but it is the government that is letting them do it. If ATOS wasn't there, there would be hundreds of other companies to take their place, and potentially doing worse things to disabled people, but with more support from the government.
The government dont care who carries out their dirty work, whoevers cheapest and will save them the most money will do. The health professionals dont mind who employs them, they will still get paid. The problem has been and always will be the corrupt policies of Employment and Support Allowance that has ended up with 25% of ESA claimants that had been found fit to work are neither back in employment nor receiving benefits (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/31/disabled-people-benefits-panorama?CMP=twt_gu) and if we forget that then we are in danger of misdirecting our anger.
Targeting the paralymics and ATOS as the article at the top suggests is going to happen will, as far as i can see stop people like you and me from being able to access ATOS for our benefit. Now I know this might be a good thing, but any slowdown in my ESA process will only stress me more. I would like my decision ASAP and if I have a medical on the dates of the protests then I will not be impressed at an anti ATOS party being around to 'support' me. It will harm the reputation of ATOS and implicitly link them to the failures of the WCA, which is simply not true, this is government policy, not ATOS policy. If the government has any sense, they will simply turn around and give us what we want, IE. sacking ATOS, but simply replacing them with another private, profiteering company with the same aims and objectives and so the cycle begins again.
Dont you see? ATOS are not the problem here, the law and the whole system is the problem.
Well, true up to a point...
ReplyDeleteATOS are contracted to provide medical assessments. They have medically qualified people employed to carry out those assessments. It was them who designed the computer program used to carry out the assessment thus negating an awful lot of the medical adviser's professional knowledge.
It's also them who tell the government how many assessments a year they can do in their bid for the contract. And thus how many assessments each assessor must do each day. It's them who carry out this rather sinister sounding 'auditing'.
In reality, the government(s) and ATOS have been in bed together for so long that blame is pretty much equal. Initially assessments were done in house (mid 90s or so) before the assessment programme was privatised to a company called Schlumberger Sema. It's via a bunch of corporate takeovers that ATOS are in charge now.
We should never let the politicians off the hook. But remember these contracts are a two way process, the current system is as much down to ATOS making dodgy promises as it is the government's indefensible policy.
Hang on, nobody held a gun to the head of ATOS and decreed "Thou shalt profiteer from people's suffering" just as nobody is forcing the health professionals to work for these companies - which in my opinion is the biggest scandal of all: that these people who take the medical oath stating that the care of the patient comes first should be willing to flout the first rule of their profession's ethical code tells you all you need to know about their motives.
ReplyDeleteThere are many doctors who, like Dr Bick try and change the system, even in a small way. the system, the whole system is screwed. My anger that lead to this post was the DPAC annoucement that they are going to be activiely targetting ATOS offices and ATOS call centres. I am claiming ESA, and as much as i dont like the system, and am actively trying to change it, the actions by DPAC are wrong. They are targetting the people in the system, and not the people who created the system.
ReplyDeleteBefore the WCA was the PCA and there were still doctors to do that job. Yes, it was done inhouse, and there were no targets, but it is the fault of the coalitions ideology that thinks the private sector is better. There is little the doctors can do to change the system, and i hope that at least some are trying, and making it as good as it can be in difficult situations.
I just want properly targetted protests to the proper offenders. If atos lose the contract there will be others to take their place...
The PCA was not done in house, it has been in private hands since at least 2000, possibly earlier. And it was Labour who introduced ESA and the WCA, which is simply a stricter version of the old PCA.
DeleteJust for interest, here's an EDM from 2000. Note Sema group owned BAMS by this point, also see how familiar it looks
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/business-papers/commons/early-day-motions/edm-detail1/?session=1999-00&edmnumber=826&orderby=Name&orderdirection=Desc
I have to totally disagree,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, Atos is not only an IT company. It had a 10 year contract with the NHS to run a surgery in London, and walked out in 2011, leaving people without medical care http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/apr/12/nhs-privatisation-future-policy
Secondly it is incompetent. It is missing a lot of the targets set by the government (processing times, number of assessments etc.
Thirdly, Atos is part of the United Nations Compact initiative and is accredited. http://www.unglobalcompact.org/participant/12068-Atos- It shows that Atos is very aware of the benefits of being an ethical company.
Finally, they are obliging their staff to break their first and most important pledge : DO NO HARM.
i think in this case ATOS are not the most evil. Now, I am not saying they are some sort of saintly company only doing good things, no. I am just saying that if ATOS weren't there then G4S would be. I think the only way to change the system is through a change in government policy. That way, if ATOS were still carrying on in the same manner they could be held to account. It is difficult to hold ATOS to account when they are doing what the DWP dictate.
DeleteI agree to a point that ATOS are only obeying government orders, but wasn't that the defence many NAZI soldiers used after WW2 was over? And at least the NAZI's had the defense they would be shot if they argued with Hitler, ATOS assessors can just quit and get another job.
ReplyDeleteForgot this one: Atos fired for incompetence http://www.supplymanagement.com/2007/atos-loses-nhs-contracts/
ReplyDeleteAtos ARE to blame as well as the government. And yes, we know any other company would be just as bad or worse. We have G4S in the bidding for the contract to assess DLA claims. So God help us all.
ReplyDeleteAtos are though, responsible for the training. The Dispatches documentary very clearly showed that the HCP training does not include telling them that all tasks have to be done "reliably, repeatedly and safely" There also seemed to be no training in the "exceptional circumstances rule".These measures are contained within the legislation and have been confirmed in Parliament by Grayling. They are also supposed to take account of pain and fatigue, also confirmed by Grayling and IDS.
Harrington was supposed to have provided specific recommendations on these two factor in last year's report, but he seems to have dodged it. Charities like MS, M.E. charities came up with recommendations but they were ignored as the government said it would mean re -writing the whole test. well, tough.
HCP's do also have the ability to make their own recommendations by freehand typing outside the tick box system. Most either don't know that or can't be bothered because it takes time. So they are accountable for not fully training their HCP's in the actual legislation. It is also down to them how often they call someone back for re-testing. Another assessment is their all too frequent response to someone winning at tribunal. Some people get reassessed every 3 months. Atos get paid per medical. So it is in their interests to recall people as often as possible.
Doctors and Nurses are to blame too. If they are prepared to work to such an odious set of descriptors, it is no good comforting themselves with the fact that they won't be called to attend tribunals. They still have to abide by GMC/NMC rules. They are still responsible for the effect on people's lives. Just saying they are only following orders is an excuse we have heard before. No decent doctor or nurse would ever dream of working for such a company and see sick people being treated like that. They do it for the money and perks and because many of them are to useless to get jobs doing anything else. It is also clear many of them have come from abroad. If they had any conscience or decency, they would have blown the whistle on this a long time ago.
It is also clear that Atos must have written into their contract that they would not be liable for any tribunal costs or loss of contract without heavy financial penalty on the government. They are the ones responsible for the fact that so many of their assesment centres are in places that are not wheelchair accessible, miles away from disabled parking or up flights of stairs or in buildings that could not safely evacuate disabled people in a fire.
There are no innocent parties in any of this. I hope the demonstration does take place and highlights to the public the toatl hypocrisy of Atos sponsoring the Paralympics, for their image. But no doubt the powers that be are already well prepared to make sure any demonstrators are silenced and no media reports it. Even China allowed an area for people to protest when they held the Olympics. We have seen people on their usual mass bicycle ride arrested and a 12 year old boypulled off his bike by the neck by guards of the hallowed Olympic flame.
Any government that does not listen to reasoned argument, leaves protest as the only option.
It wasn't the Government but an ATOS "Health Care Professional" who allegedly said to a suicidal claimant (when informed they'd overdosed several times) "Why aren't you dead then?".
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't the Government but an ATOS "Health Care Professional" who thought it appropriate to examine a client who was catatonic,unable to speak in hospital while sectioned under the Mental Health Act.
It showed the attitude of some ATOS employees when you have the trainers tell their trainees "Health Care Professionals" that the "Good thing for us is that even if you make the wrong decision because you have no evidence, you don't see x-rays, you don't see ECG, you just only see the person so you can be wrong but you never go to the tribunal, this is the good thing, you never go to the tribunal so, sort of, you won't be blamed."
When it was my husbands ESA WCA it was the ATOS "Health Care Professional" who couldn't put his correct age on the report form.
It was the same HCP who said I helped my husband off with a jacket he wasn't even wearing one yet failed to mention I had to assist him put his toe splints, socks and shoes on. It was the HCP who held doors open for us but then went on to write in his report that my husband had no problems opening doors. It was the ATOS HCP who said in his report that during the 55 minute assessment my husband had sat in a chair for 48 minutes and had stood for 6 so by that reckoning the HCP must have only had 1 minute to carry out the couch based assessments (which in reality actually lasted around 20 minutes).
ATOS may be doing the Government's bidding but they are not blameless about the way these assessments are carried out - if the HCPs know they won't be called to tribunals to explain their findings and "won't be blamed" why should they feel the need for accuracy - apart from making sure that their averages are within the norm expected of them!
This is an emotional issue and a strategic one.
ReplyDeleteOf COURSE Atos are to blame. Emotionally, they have caused untold harm. By working with the government, of course they have been to blame. They are to blame for carrying out flawed assessments, for providing a target culture amongst their staff, for callous customer service, for not speaking out when it was clear the system was failing, for not being transparent, for not having stringent enough criteria in employing HCPs - they're to blame for all of that and more. Of course they are and no-one would argue in any way that they aren't
But today, in 2012, who is to blame for the WCA? Who is to blame for the descriptors? Who refuses to change them. Who often hold Atos back from making the changes we need to see? For there being too few recorders in centres, for many remaining inaccessible? Who has the power to change it, that's the point. Contracturally, who can change it and who can only follow?
The DWP. Politicians. And they work for us. They are employed by us. And they employ Atos. In our name.
Blame is emotional and it comes in many forms. But only the DWP can change the WCA.
That's politics.
The point is, and it is where the strategy comes into play, if Atos had been competent, met all the targets set by DWP, had only issues with a number of borderline cases, and still got an awful lot of sick or disabled people off benefits, it would be a lot more difficult to make a case against it or DWP. It is important to not be divided on this issue, but Atos is really, at least in my eyes, the weakest link, through which it is possible to attack DWP.
DeleteBut what do we KNOW? Do we know enough about who controls which part of the process to say? Within the parameters set, Atos have done all the things you say.
DeleteThey have been the model employee (of the DWP) done everything asked of them and in that sense done it competently.
It just so happens that there are human beings at the end of the process (us) Atos don't decide!!! I don't know how many times it can be said. Just like corrupt bankers and hedge fund managers, they thought they could design a computer logorithm for human suffering. The DWP submitted and control the input data, Atos simply churn it our the other side as a number of points. It works EXACTLY as the DWP want it to.
Descriptors descriptors descriptors - until the DWP shift on descriptors, Atos might as well be the man on the moon or your friendly local burger flipper. Makes no odds at all.
So how on earth do you think you can get at the DWP through Atos? If THAT strategy goes well enough, Atos get the elbow and they bring in another company - G4s or Serco who are just as incompetent if not more so. BEWARE : Then, the DWP say "See! We listened, we got rid of that nasty Atos for you, now everything's fine"
Atos play the fall guy, the DWP get to be the "hero" and we get absolutely nowhere.
Until the descriptors change, Atos are fairly irrelevant.
Since it was brought in the WCA has not been about people's health but about saving money. Whether any government has the inclination to support sick and disabled people in a dignified, respectful, fact-based way is another question. ATOS are themselves to blame because they are the henchmen, though not the paymasters. I'm surprised we don't hear more about ATOS medical professionals being found guilty of professional misconduct by their governing bodies because I personally know that not only are judgments wrong, but medical facts are ignored or intentionally/unintentionally wrong.
ReplyDeleteATOS are not paid to look at the medical facts though. If you look at what ATOS actually do, their job is to carry out work capability assessments on behalf of the government. Now I know its not the case, but the theory is that the WCA is a only one small part of the whole picture. I know its not the case but medical evidence from claimaints own doctors should be used alongside the ATOS assessment (a snapshot on one day) to form a decision on the claimaints case. The reason this is not done is because of the failures of the DWP to recognise this fact.
DeleteHow can they be guilty of proffessional misconduct when they are not given the information by the DWP, or even from ATOS? They are doing the job as determined by the DWP.
Ok, lets be honest.
ReplyDeletePeople have been damaged by their interactions with Atos.
Seriously damaged.
Now there are two scenarios - one is that the examining professional did something very wrong. If they did, then the complaint can go in several directions, but IF you only complain to Atos it may not go anywhere.
So you need to be prepared to make a clear case of where the system failed and seek redress.
The other scenario is that the DWP have done something wrong. Again, the need is to identify how and where it went wrong and complain.
However the real problem may not be Atos, the problem may not be the DWP.
The problem may be simply that the criteria are wrong.
Atos and the DWP may indeed have malicious staff.
They may have incompetant staff.
Highlight that by all means, in fact definately highlight it! But highlight it as a formal complaint.
But most of the staff are just doing a job - yep, in a wonderful life they would be saving whales, climbing Kilamanjaro and finding cures for cancer.
But just like us, they haven't got a wonderful life - they have a mortgage and kids. They maybe can't afford to be ethical, and maybe they dont sleep well at night, maybe they are wracked with guilt, maybe they do have to take solace from the ones that they help and try to bury their feelings about the ones they dont help.
The real problem is not usually with the individual.
I can easily believe that there are some individuals in both Atos and the DWP who are bigots, who are vile, who think the person in front of them is scum - but it wont change unless people make sensible, rational and factual complaints.
The criteria stink, there are no two ways about it.
That is where it stops getting personal and starts getting general, it stinks for everyone.
But it wont change unless we all get vocal about it.
Thats everyone. Including you dear reader.
You have to get up and do something. Write to your MP. Invite him to your house for a chat. Organise a group meeting with him, and get others to join in.
Sign petitions. Blog. Twitter.
Everyone has a voice and a vote.
Everyone is entitled to be unhappy about their personal experiences.
But it is most likely to be the actions and policies of government and ideologies that are the root cause of your negative experiences, and we cant change those on our own.
Now is not the time for us to weaken our arguements with emotion, with the personal, with the arguements of hate or extremism.
Now is the time to bring people to the table and state the case clearly, to move forward, to influence people and to blow them away with reasoned arguement. And to offer them a clear and workable alternative.
The majority of staff Atos employ are Nurses, physios etc.
ReplyDeleteI used to be a Nurse. There is no way I or any of the people I knew then would have worked for Atos. We worked very hard on low pay to help our patients in any way we could. Too many of today's nurses are not interested in a vocation or public service. They want the pay cheque and as little hard work as possible.
Working for Atos they get a good salary, free private health care and other extras. No more shift work or nights.
It is no good trying to excuse those who carry these tests out. They know perfectly well what they are doing. Remember the staff that posted insults to the disabled on facebook?
It is not just because they need a job to pay the mortgage. There is always a demand for bank nurses and agency nurses in hospitals and the community. It is no excuse to take what little money there is from sick people because THEY need a job to pay THEIR bills.
I have been told too many truly horror stories of some really vulnerable people's medicals. The programmes did not show how badly many people are treated going through the actual assessment. People being deliberately caused pain by innapropriate examinations or the wholly inappropriate treatment and examination of PTSD sufferers after assaults.
An organisation which has a culture of targets, audits and pay per medical attracts the wrong kind of people. Welfare organisations hear all the time that the HCP wrote down things the person did not say or said they could do things which they could not. That is why so many people want their assessments recorded - to be able to proove the HCPs lied.
Certainly the culpability lies first with the DWP for deciding the impossible criteria and continuing regardless in the face of all the evidence of harm. Take the head off and the body dies. True, that is what needs to happen.
But make no mistake, there is no excuse for those HCPs who are prepared to lie or harm to meet their audit. That is immoral for any reason. They are the professionals and they have the ability to record an opinion if they want. If they have nothing to hide, why are they so relieved that they will not be called to tribunals to answer for their assesment? If they had done it fairly, they would not be cowering from having to defend it. They would not end medicals if people tried to record it for themselves. Most GPs have no complaints if a patient wants to record a consultation for later reference. So why do the HCPs?
Hitler was an evil mad man but imagine if all soldiers had refused their orders, the outcome would have been very different. He would have been left alone, ranting in a padded cell which is precisely what should happen to the DWP.
A Put-Up Job by an Atos Employee?
ReplyDeleteThe original blog, and the follow-up replies, are so strange in their attempt to defend the indefensible, that I am driven to the thought that this whole thing is being orchestrated by Atos itself, and that some poor sop has been given the job of trying to make Atos look less evil than they obviously are by posting nonsense to the Internet.